HOT TOPIC: Country vs. Pop

With the current (April 4) issue of Country Weekly bringing the battle between country traditionalists and new pop-country stars to the forefront, what's your opinion on the matter?

Has country music gone too far away from it's roots or is the new sound of country the future of country music? Should the country stars of today continue to venture into pop or step back into the twang of traditional country music?

[La]

I come from a mainly pop background, being from Asia which is a huge market for pop and not even considered for country... that would make me one of Shania's "pop" fans ... so when I say that i wish Shania would release an album like TWIM rather than COO that should tell you something! It's not about country or pop ... it's about what sounds good... Shania sounds superfabulous on both albums and she really shouldn't be getting any flack for apparently killing country music. I say she brought a whole new fan base to country music...in the words of some famous guy "Shania Twain...she changed my faith!"...it's true...Shania's very unique brand of country rocks!
Speaking for a whole section of the target audience...I hope she doesn't change her sound to please us apparently "pop" fans... I loved COO the US version more than the international version we got...
In the end...as long as it's 100% truly Shania...the question of pop or country absolutely does not matter. And i think Shania truly is what she sounds like on TWIM...COO rocked too...but I think The Woman In Me was magic.

[Cowboy24]

I may be a minority on this board, but I do believe that pop influence is beginning to kill country music. Don't get me wrong, I am a devoted Shania fan. Her music is absolutely incredible. The problem is the Shania hangover that has been created--other artists (e.g., Mark Wills, Martina McBride, SHeDAISY) cannot pull off the same pop/country magic. Shania is in a league of her own with absolutely no competition. However, I am a true lover of real traditional music. Billboard simply needs 2 charts (as I've advocated before)--one for Country & Western, and one for Contemporary Country. Radio stations would then decide which format to play, and everyone would shut up about pop's influence. It would simply become it's own breed of music.

[Heather]

Personally, I am tired of hearing all this ridiculous whining from country music "insiders" about how Shania has damaged their precious genre. Let her continue to make great music without all of this childish opposition. What are they going to do? Tell she, Garth and Faith Hill to get lost? It's a bit to late for that. Shania has started a musical revolution and it's not going to stop. Kudos to Shania for daring to be different

[Stephania5]

La: I totally agree with you. Your analysis of the whole issu is perfect. I also come from a pop background. Just like you, I love COO and TWIM, but the Woman in Me sounded more, Shania.
I think that if Shania wants to create a more pop sound of her music, than that's great. I don't think that doing that is killing country music. There is no reason why you can't have country (Alan Jackson, George Strait) and country/pop (Shania, Faith, Garth). Way back when, I bet that there was only strictly pop music and strictly rock music, and now they are sometimes being collaborated into the same type.
My final statement is: Shania and all the other country to pop cross-overs are NOT killing country music. They should do what they want to do most with their career, and the country people can keep continuing making a true country sound.

[Tinker]

Country Music has to point their fingers at someone and they are going to blame Shania on killing Country music. Well you know Country Music was going down the toilet before Shania came along and if she did anything she has helped Country Music. I like ALL KINDS of music and this pointing fingers at artists that is only trying to make their music the best it can be is a CROCK OF _ _ _ _..As I have said before these Country Music Critics and Stars need to take those ROSE COLOR GLASSES OFF and see what is happening in the real world and wake up and smell the ROSES. You don't see the old ROCK AND ROLL BANDS pointing their fingers at the new generations of Rock and Roll. You can't compare the ROCK ROLL BANDS of today with the old bands..It is NO COMPARSION. Who plays like the Eagles,Rolling Stones,Led Zepplin,Eric Clapton,Bob Seger,CCR,Who,Grateful Dead,
Blackfoot,Molly Hachet,Aerosmith,ZZ-Top,George Therogood,Lynrd Skynrd,Bonnie Rait,Fleetwood Mac.,BTO, etc. These bands could really complain because you don't hear the GOOD ROCK ROLL SOUNDS of today as you heard back then but they are not a bunch of whiney *****. Artist needs to put the best music out there they can and don't worry about what another artists is doing. They need to be TRUE to their music just like SHANIA is being TRUE to her music. Shania did put a COUNTRY ALBUM OUT(SHANIA TWAIN).This was her first album..I didn't see any of the top artists or even Mecury Records trying to help her out..They were not even thinking about giving her a chance to cut a 2nd album if it had not been for MUTT putting up his own money so Shania cut the WOMAN IN ME album, Shania could have easily slip through the cracks if MUTT hadn't taken the risk because he knew the POTENTIAL SHANIA had.Shania does not owe Mecury Records or Country Music NOTHING. What has made SHANIA TWAIN..IS GOD,HERSELF,MUTT and THE SHANIA FANS!!!!!!!!!!!

Peace Out,
Tinker

[Shania 2ain]

I definately DON'T think that pop has effected country in any way. In my opinion, Shania has brought more fans to country music than anyone else. I used to hate country and after I heard her, I loved it. I think she has expanded the country music listeners. She brings them from pop to country in just one song. It's amazing, no one has done anything like that. So WAY TO GO SHANIA!!!!!! You're awesome!!

[Larry]

I haven't always liked country music, but I switched over because pop was beginning to sound more like electric noise than music. now, the steel guitar seems to be giving way to synthesizers and I rarely see an accoustic guitar any more. It makes me sad to see all this happening to the only form of music that doesn't make my skin crawl.

[somefan]

I don't really feel that she had killed country music. How could she have. A. she made some of it better
2. There's plenty of other crappy country musicians out there singin the old stuff....so if people like those people better..they can just listen to them

[Justin]

Saying that pop has had no effect on country is simply ridiculous. Like all music, each category influences the next. How do you think say jazz was created. It is basically a mix of blues and orquestral music. All forms of music have influenced each other in some way or another to create new forms like the most recent rap category. Now what we have going on is a new category of music which is now referred to as country/pop crossover music. In time it will be a completely new category in itself but as of now it is being strongly debated. As this new form of music is created the two categories that make it up will still be there. Country and Rock will never die because you can't destroy something that has been molded from other forms of music. I feel that this new country/rock music is fantastic and I believe it will continue to grow strong. I sure hope it will. We have Shania to thank for creating this new category and building it so strong that others are following in her footprints. GO SHANIA!

Justin

[Debster]

Originally posted by Cowboy24:
I may be a minority on this board, but I do believe that pop influence is beginning to kill country music. Don't get me wrong, I am a devoted Shania fan. Her music is absolutely incredible. The problem is the Shania hangover that has been created--other artists (e.g., Mark Wills, Martina McBride, SHeDAISY) cannot pull off the same pop/country magic. Shania is in a league of her own with absolutely no competition. However, I am a true lover of real traditional music. Billboard simply needs 2 charts (as I've advocated before)--one for Country & Western, and one for Contemporary Country. Radio stations would then decide which format to play, and everyone would shut up about pop's influence. It would simply become it's own breed of music.

I couldn't agree with ya more! I like Shania's music because there is some pop in it. I don't care for the twangy side of country or the rinky tink stuff. I like contemporary music whether it is pop or country. It is more enjoyable, in my opinion.

Shania is definitely in a league of her own. She is also very natural and unassuming. I have never seen her in person but I have heard she really gives a great concert!

[Cowboy24]

Debster, thanks for agreeing with me. It's just my opinion, but I feel strongly about it. The only thing that bothers me is when people say it's bad for traditional country musicians to complain about the status of today's country. In my opinion, more fingers are being pointed simply because there are fewer traditional country artists that there used to be. Because of increased country/pop record sales, contemporary country artists have increased substantially. That is why it is such a hot issue right now. Just keep in mind that there has always been pop influences in country music. Some people shirked at the idea of awarding John Denver the coveted Entertainer of the Year Award. Kenny Rogers, Olivia Newton John, and others crossed over long before the current debate even started.

And just one other thing, crossover acts are prevalent in virtually all other forms of music, even though there has been some arguments on this forum (which is still great to debate)that rock and other generes do not have such an influence. Currently, critics are blasting Jay-Z for "crossing over" from rap to hip-hop in Mariah Carey's "Heartbreaker" song. Others criticize Kid Rock and Limp Bizkit (sp?) for combining rock and hip-hop. Even Coolio remade Kenny Roger's "The Gambler" into a rap/hip-hop song. Crossing over is occurrring everywhere, not just in the country scent. Just my two cents...

[JaSoN]

NO!! YOU GUYS SEE, TIMES ARE CHANGING AND THE DIVERSITY BETWEEN MUSIC IS CHANGING. THE TONES AND THE LYRICS ARE TURNING IN A MORE PRODUCTIVE MANNER. ITS JUST THAT OLD PEOPLE IN COUNTRY MUSIC ARE AFRAID OF CHANGE LIKE THE OLD PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN MY TOWN AND ARE AFRAID TO MAKE MY TOWN A MORE MODERN, CONTEMPERARY TOWN. GENERALLY, OLDER PEOPLE ARE AFRAID FOR THEIR WAYS TO BE DIFFERENT AND FALL OUT OF "FASHION". I THINKS ITS WONDERFUL THAT THE POP - COUNTRY IS "IN" PEOPLE JUST NEED TO CALM DOWN, AND GO BUY THEIR "COUNTRY" CD AND NOT BUY THE "POP-COUNTRY" CDS, BUT HOW CAN THEY DO THAT WHEN THE CDS ARE THE BEST OUT THERE??? ITS ONE SIMPLE FACT "THE OLD FARTS DONT WANT CHANGE, AND THEIR JEALOUS OF SHANIA " ~JaSoN

[shania_wannabe]

In my opinion...country music IS changing. Some people are afraid of that, and are blaming this on shania, faith, etc because they think this big move will do something....what? I dont know..but that is what they think. Country music is evolving...but I think for the best! Shania has broken the boundry between country and pop, and because of this...more pop listeners have become more involved with country! Country music will never be the same....and yes, i mean that in a good way!

[shmoopie]

I've been reading the replies to this topic and think that everyone has a good point. I want to add my own contribution.

Yes, Shania is too unique to be categorized. The music industry is trying to make her one type of music or the other, but won't let her be herself.

I think music, in general, is a reflection of global culture. As a society, we have been merging cultures and developing new identities. Music and its artists, depict this. Is Lauren Hill "bad" because she has brought new fans to R & B? What about Andrea Bocelli? Is opera worse now that "pop listeners" are buying its records?

The same debate exists in the rock world and its definition of "alternative music", which has become mainstream, pioneered by leaders like Nirvana and Pearl Jam. They have brought Blink 182, The Offspring, and The Foo Fighters. These bands have gotten bigger, and are criticized for "watering down" rock.

Music should simply be a creative outlet for artists. One cannot object to another's musical stylings without very well objecting to the artist's own personality.

[bubbalee]

People have to accept that most of todays country artists grew up listening to just as much pop & rock as they did country.So that is naturally gonna affect thier music style. Most muscians are a product of thier influences. Will country go back more traditional. Probally for a brief period of time. Music trends go in circles. Then someone else is gonna start a new country trend (can you say country rap-dont be suprised if one day it happens)and thats the dirrection country is going to take. And of corse all the pop country artist of today will complain that country music has changed to much, ect,ect,ect.

[Mutt-]

Matt, first of all, I want to say, what a great topic and very well put. The question of country vrs. pop is an extremely HOT topic as everyone well knows.

Ok, Here's my take on the subject. I'm a little bit country and a little bit rocknroll, so I love both and have followed both for many years. So, it would be hard for me two, but if I had to I would choose, I would country. However; I really don't see what the fight or fear is all about. I believe there is a place for both and that both can co-exist.

From a country perspective, I, as many, have watched the country music industry grow into the power kingdom that it is today. Given that kind of growth, I sincerely believe that it is only natural for country music to be spreading it's roots and it's branches. I personally don't believe that the country crossover pop of such artist as Shania or Garth has in any way hindered the more sounds traditional sounds. Yes, I hope the tree is strong enough to bend, because I believe the winds of change so far have only served to make the tree stronger.

I as well as you have heard testimony after testimony, yes, even on this forum, of people who were convinced they didn't like country music, but heard Shania's music and voice and talent and decided they did like country music after all. And I believe many will go on to love the more traditional country music sounds as well.

I believe that Shania Twain, herself, has led the way in this endeavor. Shania has been a true and very couragious pioneer and has taken some pretty tough blows for her efforts, I hear. And I don't think she has gotten the credit she deserves, but surely she has more than earned the right to do whatever kind of music she wishes to do, at the very least. And I do believe that the country music should embrace her for daring to brave the growing pains of the industry. In case, it has not been said enough, Thanks Shania. Way to go!!

[ShaniaTL]

I think that the way country singers are singing, they should keep singing the way they want. If George wants to keep into the roots of country, go for it! If Shania wants to come on over to pop, that's great! They should be able to choose the type of music they sing and how they sing it. As long as it sounds good, that's fine w/ me. People shouldn't tell them how to sing.
TL

[Zee]

I agree with you 100%, ShaniaTL. Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[ShaniaTL]

Yo Zee,
That's cool! Shania ROCKS!!! Peace out man. I'm hyper cuz it's F R I D A Y NIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TL

[RJ]

Wow! There are some pretty darned knowledgeable people here concerning the subject of music.

I don't know beans about the subject. But I been around here for a while, and many of you've responded to my inputs; and since the chief honcho asked for our two cents, here's mine.

There's the music, and the substance behind it. The substance comes from the person who writes the song. That which comes from Shania is so good that the format can be changed somewhat without harm, either to the original message, or to any related musical style.

Maybe the traditionalist country music group has a more clearly defined ballpark of subjects they want to express, as well as a more clearly defined set of musical characeristics that they prefer. I can understand that some of them will not like to have their waters muddied, diluted or overshadowed by a kissing cousin. If you have invested quite a lot into establishing an identity for yourself through performers who express what you feel, in the way you want to hear it, you can feel deflated if someone comes along and changes that too much.

Tho I understand some of that, it ain't me. I enjoy good music from a variety of types, but mostly pop. After hearing Shania, I've started listening to and enjoying much more music by traditional country artists than I ever had before. Even so, I still prefer a wider fare for musical expression of ideas and feelings than seems to exist in traditional country. Shania's range of topics and feelings seems wonderful to me. So I enjoy both her country twang stuff and her more pop stuff; her blood stirring, foot stomping stuff as well as her sentimental ballads.

There was something on the PBS news this evening about how music can teach what nothing else can. When done well, it is an international language that speaks to the soul and motivate us to be better people and make the world a better place for all of us. I think Shania's music is so good, she can persuade people to enjoy stuff they flat out would never do in their calm, logical, non-musical every day life. Fortunately that's only in her teasing lyrics and songs. Her serious songs are on very constructive tracks.

I sometimes feel it's the substance behind the music that makes Shania so phenomenal. But the medium certainly helps make the message. Her great band, great performing and great packaging are a necessary vehicle to carry such wonderful messages.

So does fantastically successful cross over hurt traditional country in some way? Yep, I think it's inevitable that it hurts some people in some way.

Is that harm great enough to tell all cross over successes to quit? lol.

Is there a benefit that cross over success brings to traditional country? Most of you've said yes and described how it does.

Is the harm of cross over to traditional country great enough that reasonable cautions can be voiced with useful effect? Maybe so in some ways. Probably won't achieve any useful effect to tell Shania or Garth etc to retire. Also doubt it will do much good to try to get them to differentiate or draw clearer lines between cross over and traditional and pop. They're gonna make their music express things however best they can.

So is there some other caution or suggestion about blurring musical genre (is that the right word?) that will help any? Probably so, maybe in the areas of me-too ism, overextention, or newcomer talents without the development to avoid spreading too thin (sorta like my ideas, which are running out of gas)

It's past my bedtime again. Sorry young'uns. Tomorrow's another day to smile.

[Larry]

RJ! That was quite a bit more than two cents worth, but worth every penny. You bring up valad arguements both pro and con. After reading your oppinion, I got to thinking... and I agree with a whole lot of what you had to say. I'll probably be thinking about it a whole lot more after I sign off.

[RJ]

Larry,

You can say more in two lines to make a person feel great, than I can in two hours of punching keys. Thanks for the reply.

I expect to be doing some high altitude hiking and a bit of climbing in Colorado this August. Noticed your insignia re Boulder County Schools. Are you on staff there?

[RJ]

Mutt-

There are lots of excellent responses here. And I'm seeing increasingly deeper thought expressed than when this site first opened a few months ago. The way that members are investing effort and constructively building upon each other's ideas is very uplifting.

Some of these threads revolve around the topic of popularity and fame. Some revolve around musical technique. Some are about personalities and philosophies. Some are about feelings and spontaneous excitement. Some overlap, of course.

Many people here obviously have considerable knowledge about the specific field of music. I know little about that. My info tends to be about issues behind music, or the consequences of music, or issues that run through music which are not related to musical technique.

I am curious about the statement that you and a few others have made that the battle between traditional country music and pop-country is an extremely hot topic.

Could you give me a brief, thumbnail sketch of that phenomenon? I'm not much exposed to it but am curious to learn more about it.

Is it possible that there's a collection of people whose lives revolve around the heartache and blue collar themes? The stymied, stifled and restrainedly protesting persons who don't want to risk another try to bust out of their chains of bureaucracy or establishment?

I may be way out in left field here. But one stray thought that occurred to me, is that maybe there's some cognitive dissonance going on with Traditional Country's perception of pop-country and cross over.

In this global economy, where traditional workers (the vast majority in this country) have been pressed harder and harder by their employers, to compete in productivity, with workers in other countries who are paid nickels and dimes per hour; we feel very vulnerable. Maybe we do not want to stick our necks out very far, cause we might kill the goose that's laying the golden egg economy (even while we're being squeezed like turnips by employers trying to make blood). Maybe we'd rather cry in our beer than follow a good cheer. That's because this disconsolate feeling is the predominate one we have from the largest portion of our waking lives.

Maybe pop-country and cross over phenoms like Shania and Garth express too much hope, too much joy, to fully and comfortably fit the mood of many working people.

Or maybe my brain got wound too tight and I popped another thread. In which case, I have two more among the plenty of other loose ends to pick up again.

Speaking of which, your earlier reply had some very interesting, even eloquent presentation. Would you care to give us a bit of info about the background from which you know this material?

[Larry]

RJ: I work in the operations department at the Education Center. I get to go web-hopping when I come in at night. Otherwise, I have to use the Gateway at home.